Is it Normal to Want a Prenup?

When you think of a prenup, what comes to mind? It’s a simple thing, but for a lot of people it stirs up complicated, even negative emotions, and they have definitely been the source of an argument or two over the years.

In fact, many people say they would refuse to sign a prenup if their partner asked, there’s that much negative stigma attached to them. But is that stigma really justified? And is it normal to want a prenup before you get married?

Now, when I mentioned to my boyfriend that I was doing a podcast on prenups, his ears pricked up and he asked me what I thought about them. And honestly, I didn’t really answer!

Instead I said I wanted to do the episode first, so that I would have a better idea of how to have that conversation with him. And that exchange highlighted to me exactly why I wanted to talk about this topic – because the question of romance versus practicality is one that comes up time and time again with my clients.

So, to set things straight and break down some of that stigma, I sat down and had a chat with Patrick Venn, a money coach who’s gone through his own journey through money embarrassment to financial empowerment, and helps others make the trip too. And he has some fantastic insights, along with tips to help make those conversations go a little bit smoother.

---

We cover:

1. Prenups - Fact vs Fiction

2. Why do we hate talking about prenups?

3. Why do you want a prenup?

4. The Amazon example

5. Having ‘The Talk’

More from Patrick:

www.patrickvenn.com

IG - @patrickvenn

Prefer to listen? Head to the podcast conversation here.

---

Prenups – Fact vs Fiction

Getting married is a big thing. In fact, it’s probably one of the biggest things you’ll do in your life. So it’s only natural to have a few questions. For example – even though your marriage vows say forever, the reality is that 42% of marriages in England and Wales end in divorce – so it’s pretty reasonable to wonder what would happen if you and your partner split up, particularly when it comes to money. How do you divide your assets? How do you divide your money? How would it all work, without constant arguing?

Prenups are the natural answer to all of those questions. It’s as simple as a legally formalised document, which you and each of your lawyers have agreed on. It addresses all of those questions I just mentioned, and lays out what will happen if you decide to divorce. But they’ve got a seriously bad reputation over the years. The classic being ‘you’re planning for divorce before you’ve even had the wedding’.  But in reality, there have been plenty of studies done that show absolutely no correlation between signing a prenup and having marriages end prematurely.

Instead, we should look at prenups as more like preventative health care. If we can see a potential danger or speed bump in the future, then why wouldn’t we now try to be proactive about the preventative measures we take? So that if it does happen, we can be more prepared, and everyone knows where they stand. And if you want an extra positive – if you are able to have that very difficult conversation and come to an agreement, then you’re probably a couple who can communicate quite well, which is always a good sign for a relationship!

Why do we Hate Talking About Prenups?

There’s no two ways about it, prenups are a difficult conversation to have. But is that just because we’ve seen so many negative portrayals of them in the media? Have we been taken in by all the negative stigma, and now we just think it’s a bad thing, regardless of how useful they can be? Patrick explains that, in his experience, there are three main reasons that his clients are reluctant to talk about prenups, and they are:

·       It’s a misunderstood thing. People think prenups are exclusively for rich and famous people, so if you’re not a Duke or an Earl splitting land with your partner, it’s not worth doing.

·       It’s an explosive question. Patrick called it a ‘hand grenade’ question, in that it can blow things up and cause all sorts of arguments if it’s not handled carefully.

·       There is so much stigma around the subject. When you say the word ‘prenup’, it instantly brings up some pretty negative connotations even though it’s not a negative thing.

And actually, prenups can be a really positive conversation to have with your partner, if you tackle them in the right way. Personally, I think one of the reasons we’re so scared to talk about prenups when wedding planning is that it represents that real conflict that between the romantic ideal of your relationship, and the everyday practicalities of it.

But prenups can be incredibly helpful in a relationship and a marriage. Especially since, if things do go wrong, you’re not having those discussions at the height of emotion. By approaching the conversation at the beginning, you can take a lot of the emotion out of the conversation, since you’re not at the point where your relationship is broken down. There is no emotional gasoline to pour on the fire, and you can have the conversation in a much more civil and productive way.

Why do you Want a Prenup?

Patrick was good enough to share with me his journey of considering a prenup, and his reasons behind wanting one himself.

‘So there was one very specific moment in time where the idea of a prenup came into my life. And honestly, it was more like a per prenup, or an informal contract at that stage. It was when my partner and I moved in together – we had just been dating three months, so it was all quite quick. We were both leaving our current leases, so it was a kind of convenience thing really. We thought ‘let’s test it now’, rather than waiting a year or two. And when we moved in, she came into the relationship with a lot more than I did. She had a career in investment banking, and I was in corporate sport sponsorships, so her earning level was a lot higher than mine – double, or it might have even been triple. On top of that she also had savings, investments and other tangible things like a TV, bed, sofa, that kind of stuff that she brought with her. And it was her who broached the subject with me. It wasn’t necessarily a prenup, because we weren’t getting married, but some type of loose agreement that we understood what was happening. And that conversation set the scene a little bit, because she was bringing so much and there I was with my two wheely suitcases.

Now I’ll never forget bringing this up with a few of my mates. They were like, Whoa, that's quick to move in. But congratulations. And then I brought up this idea of this rough contract, and they just thought it was the most bizarre thing in the world. That I was signing this thing when I’d just met her. But because I’d had a previous relationship go 180 and end pretty quickly, I knew how fast things could turn. And we were jumping into this. So I was actually happy to do it, because it was a sign of acceptance. And I knew there was this line in the sand, so if anything did go wrong, we could just go our septate ways and it would be a lot easier for everyone. So it actually filled me with a weird sense of comfort that we addressed all that stuff before we moved in.’

I found the reaction of Patricks’ friends the most interesting thing. Now it could be because Patrick is Canadian, so prenups are much more common where he’s from, and the subject of money is less taboo. So it’s something we as British people just aren’t used to talking about openly, which might be why so many people don’t know if getting a prenup in Britain is normal.

The Amazon Example

One thing Patrick mentioned in our discussion was perhaps the most famous divorce in recent history, and how prenups would work in that situation. He was talking, of course, about Jeff and Mackenzie Bezos.

‘If you look at it at face value, he is the CEO and majority shareholder of Amazon. Now she worked there on the very early days when it was just started getting going, but she stepped away far before it took off into this gigantic rocket ship that it's become. But when they did actually split up, she got a large portion of the Amazon company's wealth, which in my eyes, she was totally entitled to. Even if she wasn't and running things day to day, they had four kids, and I'm sure she had a lot of responsibilities because she stayed at home to raise the kids and took on a tremendous amount of responsibility to allow Jeff the freedom, space and time to build this rocket ship. That is a true partnership. And, and even though she wasn't in Amazon day to day, they built Amazon while they were together, and she’s entitled to a share of that. Now if it had gone the other way – if Amazon was where it is today and he got married to a new partner, I would think that Jeff would want to have a prenup to protect most of what he brought in, that didn't have anything to do with the new partner.’

And after mulling it over a bit, I think Patrick is absolutely right. A prenup is about more than protecting money, in a way. It’s about accounting for things that aren’t of monetary value, the sacrifices you both make to build things or to raise a family. Too often it’s framed as if the wife at home wasn’t ‘earning’ in the relationship, and that she ‘took’ the man’s money in the prenup. But that’s not right at all. Because in a true partnership, both sides give different things to the household. It’s not just about who’s the breadwinner.

Having ‘The Talk’

And as we talked, Patrick has some great tips for how you can broach the prenup conversation in a calm and less inflammatory way. Because a big part of thinking financially as a couple, and discussing things like prenups, is being able to remove the emotions from the equation and have these very grown-up and sometimes difficult discussion. Some of Patrick’s advice to get you started off on the right foot includes:

Avoid the Spreadsheets:

‘I think when a lot of people dive into this conversation about money or prenups, the first response is to say ‘OK, let’s get to the kitchen table, lay out our spreadsheets and talk hard numbers and facts’. And that’s probably the worst place to start. Instead, you want to start with the feeling or meaning behind the decisions – the numbers can come later. So first, try to understand why you want a prenup, where is that coming from? It could be that a previous relationship has brought this emotion up, or you could have an inherited personal or family home that’s very special to you that you want to protect. Try to get to the meaning behind the conversation, and make sure you’re listening to your partner and their side as well.’

Start a ‘Life Dinner’:

‘Honestly, I stole this idea from an entrepreneur names Brad Feld, but it’s something I do once a month with my fiancée. And that’s to have a life dinner once a month. It’s not a date night – it’s a chance to go over things in your life. Like your overall financial picture, your careers, what’s going right in the last 30 days, what’s gone wrong? Having a financial check-in is a great chance to open this conversation up, as it’s a designated time to have that kind of discussion. So everyone is in the right headspace for it, and ready to have an in-depth, serious discussion.

Don’t Be Cutthroat:

‘It doesn’t have to be a hard-line 50/50 split, or I get it all and you get 0. You need to take into account the reasoning behind the prenup. For example, if there is a family home that is being left to one partner in a will that they have a lot of attachment to, they may want to ensure that property stays in their family. So your prenup would address that, but keep everything else 50/50. A prenup should be individual to your relationship, what you each brought into it and what everything means to each of you.

So, is it normal to want a prenup? I think Patrick has helped me realise that yes, it absolutely is, but not many people talk about it! He’s also inspired me in this conversation about how prenups are more than just a piece of paper – that our negative reaction to them is more about our fear of the relationship failing, more than the protection they provide. If you’d like to know more about prenups, you can find Patrick here and here, and keep an eye out for my guide on avoiding the fear of failure in relationships later this week.

And if you want to hear the full conversation, you can listen to the podcast here too!